Trying to help too…
Hello there, I could have posted the below as a comment, but then I would lose control of it and would not be able to rewrite it and claim that I have never said this or that. I like having this freedom. It makes me feel powerful. (Until Chris takes away my right to post…) ; )
The 10 things…
1) Saddam Hussein was considered “the good guy” in 1963 and then at least once again in 1984. Remember the “whatever is necessary” promise made by a gentleman who’s name still is Donald Rumsfeld to Saddam in 1984? Remember what he promised?
I personally feel a little sorry for George W. Bush and his role in this particular game.
2) One of the ideas of the United Nations is that the nobody is given the power to just take over and become the ultimate “good guy.”
3) Last time I was in Paris, it looked like the French had done a fantastic job protecting their capital from the bad guys. Have you ever seen the footage of Hitler driving around a completely empty Paris? For me, this pretty much spells victorie…
4) I do not even understand 4. Should I sue my school, or should I have it taken out by my people and a bunch of other people from other schools?
5) Who is trying to kill us, be honest with yourself. (And no, George W. Bush is not trying to kill us, don’t even go there.)
6) I missed this one as well. Is this the guy from the West-wing?
7) This one is actually somehow correct. It is a considered a great live-saving virtue to stick to your ideas in the thought system of some cultures born under the rough conditions of a desert… and not on plantations filled with hmm… stop me…
I do not believe in a “vast right-wing conspiracy.” There is no Dell dude… he is an actor, see point 6?
9) I have seen this one before. These tend to be famous last words…
10) I agree that we need to support our young men and women, and there are certainly other ways to do that than to give them gas-masks, which might work?
As to the points Rich made in the comments to the last post… I actually agree that democracy might not be the best idea for everybody. Democracy is great for groups of people who are good consumers and good citizens. Democracy would not have worked in Greece if there would have been no hmm… “idiotos”, the so called “common man”…
Sand is really good in absorbing blood, as it has done that really well for more than 3000 years in that particular region.
The bloodiest day in American history was in September of 1862 in Antietam it would be really good if it stayed this way?
As for the aid statement… it should probably be put in perspective by figures of oil consumption, environmental impact per person, gross income per person.
Just imagine if each and every one of us gave $250 to help just one other country…oh wait… this is just “happening”…
#6…ohmigawd, i am so watching “apocalypse now - redux” tonite! nekkid’ playboy bunnies and dead bodies–giddy up.
Great post Witold. I will attempt to address point by point but the format makes it a little difficult so please forgive lapses in cogency.
1. In realpolitik, there is no good guy/bad guy. There is only usefulness. Sometimes they are useful, sometimes they are not. Sadda, was once useful then he went nuts. Much like Noriega. These things happen.
2. It doesn’t matter what the principles of the UN are. It matters how the principles are enacted. Actions speak louder than words. The UN may be a good idea(I personally don’t agree with it), but it doesn’t matter because its principles have been manipulated and mutated.
3. This is an interesting point. The Czechs did the same thing. Capitulate to save their home. The Czechs did it because Prague is beautiful. I don’t believe that of the French. And personally, I would rather see any American city laid to waste than to see another nation conquer us. But that’s just me.
4. This is because “No War for Oil” is intrinsically a stupid slogan. Sounds good but shows a complete lack of understand of economics and IR. Boutros Boutrous Ghali himself said that if the US wanted to control the oil, there are infinitely cheaper and easier ways to do it.
5. Fundamental Arab/Muslim terroists are trying to kill us. Saddam has attempted to kill Americans in the past. This is documented. We all know about UBL. I have friends that have been shot and shot at by these guys. Don’t tell me that they’re harmless.
6. Yes Sheen is from the West Wing. He seems to actually think he has an important point of view these days.
7.I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. What Dennis Miller is saying is that apeasement doesn’t work. What do plantations have to do with this?
8. The Dell dude does exist and got busted for buying pot. What Dennis is trying to say is that right-wing conspiracy nuts are stoned. I tend to agree. It’s a common human failing to blame their lack of success on the “system” instead of themselves. The world isn’t against you. It’s indifferent towards you. That’s an important distinction.
9. We actually have a good track record here. Despite our failings, we liberated Germany, France, Italy, Phillipines, S. Korea, and a bunch others I am too lazy to name here. Personally, I don’t believe in risking American lives to liberate Arabs, but that’s just me.
10. That gas-mask rumor was a bullshit rumor. Our MOPP gear works and works well. Far better than what any other nation has to offer.
I don’t understand your point about Greece and the common man. The common man is who put Socrates to death. The common man moved away from the principles of Pericles. Why would democracy not have worked if not for the common man? Democracy, at least the Greek version, was based in land ownership. Those with a right to vote were not necessarily common men as they already held land. If you want to look at sheer numbers, slaves were more common than citizens, particularly in Sparta.
As to your point about financial aid, I’d like to say it’s a typical response. You’re talking about environmental impact. I’m talking about food. There’s a difference in importance. First food and water, then anything else.
I like being a superpower. Nobody gave us this position. It was earned. What’s wrong with enjoying what was earned? And if somebody is going to dictate the course of the world, it’s better it’s us than anybody else. The French had their chance. So did the British and Germans. Now it’s our turn. That’s nothing to feel bad about or to be ashamed of. People come here because there’s opportunity. That’s a good thing.
Ahem, let me respond to your last claim first. You are not a superpower. : )
You are a vote within a superpower and you happen to agree with the ideas of those who currently hold on to the driver’s seat. That might feel nice, but it might also be fascinating to imagine being on the other seat in the car, or maybe even outside of the vehicle. The simplest thought is to imagine yourself where you think you are now. It takes real courage to imagine yourself in the skin of someone else. : )
(The technique of imagining yourself in the skin of someone else can be deadly in battle, but it might be quite good in preventing Alzheimers, or so I hope… something will get us after all.)
I really hope you are smiling now.. I did not mean to attack you in any way.
1) Hmm, Noriega went nuts because he sold drugs to “our children”? (The Crack Cocaine that was being sold to kids in front of the white house on Sept. 1 1989?) Or what was it again that he did? Yes, there is only usefulness. Indeed. And this thought does not scare you a bit? Oh wait… it does not.
2) Manipulated and mutated. Yes indeed. : ) Do you think it would be a much better idea to let the country that happens to have the most advanced smart weapons guide us on the path towards global happiness? I am not talking about America, just a theoretic country.
3) Well, my point was actually really flawed. The Polish people did not defend Warsaw and it was just flattened. My parents live in a place called Hanau, which was flattened to 99.5% though the military installations were empty… and they were also the 0.5% of the city that was left standing… 100%… Usefulness. I guess it actually also applies here. The liberating troops just moved in later. Now that’s “smart bombing”.
4) You are right about the “no blood for oil” comment being stupid. I personally think that a document by Paul Wolfowitz in 1992 outlines the reasons much better. For those who know it less than you and I here are some excerpts. So yes, blood for oil is not thinking far enough. : )
5) Nobody is trying to kill us. There are some extremists who are trying to kill Americans as they think they know them, you know, the ignorant bully Americans who do not really exist. I have the feeling that ultimately we will just die. Maybe in a car accident on Queens Boulevard, or maybe because of a heart attack. You and I will probably go out the “natural” way… nobody is going to kill us.
Okay, my curiosity will kill me, or my ignorance…
6) I should really start watching more TV, I can not keep up with these things. : )
7) Okay, the plantations thing. And the greek thing. I mean that Democracy is a luxury. Democracy is great for places that have the luxury to have great supplies of food and time… or am I completely wrong? If you are in the desert and are trying to have as many children as you possibly can, so your family survives and does not get killed by the people from the neighboring clan you will not come up with democracy, you will come up with religion, and probably a Single God, so there are no questions who is going to win. : )
The dell dude just plays the dell dude on tv. There is no dell dude… Just like this president guy is not the president. People like you and I invented the guy to sell computers built out of available components… : )
9) I do not think it is possible to “liberate” a place that has been fighting itself for the last 3000 years. Such instable systems call for a very strong hand, something to be afraid of. Be it Allah, or …, or… hmm… who will it be?
It was much easier to “liberate” Japan, (did you know we liberated them, because they were working on weapons of mass destruction?) for example, because it was a more homogenous entity.
10) What do you mean with “far better than what any other nation has to offer?” Hey, I have a coupon for $20 off All Gas Masks… want one? You can get it here.
My father used to work as a rescue worker in a coal mine. So I got to play with a working gas mask. Okay, it was the Polish type, but it allowed my father to pull out the corpses out of burning mines. I must say that this thing was not something I would like to wear again. One needs to have a special breathing technique for those things. It is not like you can put it on and go on with your life. I somehow have the feeling that even if the technology works, what might fail will be the software wearing these things. I know, I know, best trained troops in the world and all that… but if God forbid somebody decides on using some sort of chemical agent, or worse, biological agent, what will be the actual fail rate? Also… I understand that the troops can run for cover when there is one unexpected rocket that somehow happens to hit the area next to their camp. What will happen in a case when the substance is deployed in a less exclusive way. I mean if the attack actually seems to be a conventional attack, with everybody excited and all, and then just one of the missiles happens to carry that stuff? Just theoretically.
Also, I know that all the tanks are pressurized systems and that they can be operated wearing a t-shirt while going through a river of deadly chemicals, but what happens if some crazy person brings the argument you brought as answer to point three. (And I am assuming that you are not nuts, right?)
“And personally, I would rather see any American city laid to waste than to see another nation conquer us. But that’s just me.”
Now let’s say you would realize that the game is over and that the only way for you to somehow “cut the fingers” that are going after you, would be to just set the whole place on “fire.” We have seen this before, many times. Remember Napoleon’s march on Moscow?… Like that. What will then happen to the entire population. Will there be enough room for them in the tanks?…
As much as seeing Hitler driving through the empty streets of Paris spelled “victorie” for me… American tanks in empty streets of Baghdad would probably spell something else. And I think at this point, the global opinion would not really matter…
So why would the democracy not work without the common man? Well, if there were no people who would own the common man and slaves and such exclusive things, then everybody would be just trying to survive and then nobody would even think about starting a democracy. I somehow have this strange feeling that democracy needs the masses to cast their votes and work and pay taxes… and that it needs the land owners and the “smart people on top” to “run the place”.
Oh, and democracy also needs stability. Doesn’t it?
You know what just occurred to me? What if each nation were like a person and then they would together create a thing that would be like Democracy. Like a democracy of giants, except the giants would be actually nations. You would make sure that none of the guys gets the ultimate power (just like we separate power in a democracy, right?) and we could just make this thing and, what the heck, call it the United Nations of the World, or something… could this work?
My typical response might be typical because it contains some sort of truth? I do not mean the full truth, of course, maybe some sort of piece of a truth, hidden somewhere underneath the layers of utopian naiveté, as I would describe my view of the world.
I really have no f***ing clue about politics… I am not kidding…
And we are back to you liking being the superpower. : )
I have the feeling some of the “earned” stuff might have something to do with the points above and with the land underneath our feet being some pretty darn good soil and thus with sheer luck. : )
Ok, I know this will look really far fetched, but maybe not at all, it depends, one of my favorite stories is the story of Wernher von Braun. Here we have a hero, who actually said: “I aim for the moon but sometimes I hit London .” A guy who was “useful” and did not “go nuts.” (Though he was actually working on a weapon to hit New York, you know…) What a hero. (There is actually even a song about him.
I have the feeling that we are just very, very lucky to sit on a really sweet piece of land and having the luxury to have a democracy, thus stability for a long, long time. So if you see it this way. Yes, well earned. Just do not ask some minorities that used to own this land.
; )
And you know what I also like? I like that we (you and I) are sitting here in this little online room and discussing some “big” issues. It is a bit like it must have been when people would sit in beer cellars and talk about their winning team when far away from a war, back in the day. Except that we do not see each other now… and that the “emperor” does not actually march with the army…
I guess times change.
We will not change a thing… but it is nice to see that you are pretty damn right in some points… and that hopefully so am I… and maybe in the same points and maybe not…
Wit,
I wrote this before your second response. I’ll post it now, but after I fully absorb your new post, I may need to respond again…
I won’t take your privileges away. In fact, I appreciate your post for both its clarity and its sincerity. It also has good potential for yet another lively debate. I also really appreciate Rich’s calm response. I agree with Rich in this case for a number of reasons. I’d prefer to also go down the list one by one.
1. Saddam is a bad guy. Forget good guy vs. bad guy. No matter what you think of Bush, his money, his father, his education, his intelligence, he does not murder, torture and rape. Saddam is the closest thing the world has to a James Bond super-villain. Documented proof exists of systematic ethnic cleansing, direct payments to families of Palestinian suicide bombers, the use of chemical weapons on his own people, torture of prisoners of war, support and training for known terrorists, pursuit of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons, and the use of rape and torture of women as means of terrorizing his population into control. Like you, George Bush can barely even imagine such horrors.
2. The point of the United Nations is far different from its reality. Without a real form of enforcement of its decisions other than the use of the United States military, you can do nothing but rely on there being an ultimate “good guy.” Don’t forget that the United Nations sat by while Hutus attempted genocide of the Tutsis in Rawanda, while Slobodan Milosovic attempted genocide of the Muslims and Albanians in Serbia, and now while Saddam Hussein’s regime has spent the last 12 years ignoring 17 United Nations resolutions. They stand by and do nothing time and time again. It is a useless organization, only good as a forum to gain support for a cause, military and financial support for an action, so it doesn’t have to cost $250 per person in this country.
3. The French are cowards, weakling and deceivers. Look at their success rate in war. They protected Paris? Big deal. Not only did they stand by as 3 million jews were slaughtered, but rolled over and participated. If wasn’t for the 70,000 dead American soldiers buried at Normandy, and the countless others who survived, and fought well, there would not be a France.
4. This is a ridiculous slogan. It is clear that we will spend far more in actual dollars, lives, and economic slowdown than we can possibly gain from oil slated to be the only real source of income for rebuilding the nation of Iraq.
5. I’ll be honest with myself on the who is trying to kill who thing: I watched as the collective Arab cheer was heard around the world when those buildings fell down. I will never forget that.
6. Yeah, this is Martin Sheen, president in the West Wing. On the show is an unbelievable fair and honest Democrat president. In real life he is staunchly liberal, unrealistic and VERY vocal. People are getting confused over which guy the real guy is.
7. Yes, this is true. Bin Laden wants everything western destroyed. If you are not a fundamental Muslim, you will be killed.
8. Bottom line is this: There is no right-wing conspiracy. I don’t think there’s much more to say here.
9. This is not a war of occupation. We have no interest in occupying Iraq. We will need to take control for a relatively short period of time in order to find all the weapons, and support a regime change. Then we will, for the most part, leave. We ARE trying to liberate Iraq. We have more to gain by a strong relationship with a thriving Arab nation than from the extended occupation of a hostile country.
10. War is never easy. We all know that. The decision has been made to fight, like it or not. It is now time to put aside differences and wholeheartedly support the young people out there doing there job. Yes, they need gas masks and MOPP suits to help protect them. Do you know why? Because Saddam Hussein has chemical weapons and isn’t afraid to use them. Want to protect our young people? Let’s collectively remove a super villain.
Hey Chris,
it is quite possible that I will not be able to keep up with both of you guys. After all, some of the answers on your side are readily available as current opinion, I somehow have to scratch my stuff together from under layers and layers of my patchy knowledge and my thin life experience. (I am just such a kid.)
Also, I will certainly contradict myself, but I am glad that I posted the entry, because I can now be my own “minitruth” (Ministry of Truth…)
1) Well, okay, he was a “good enough guy.” I like how Rich saw that he was basically useful at certain points in time. I do not deny that Saddam Hussein is a big time Stalin fan. You should see how he took over, this video is a real classic. He came out to the podium and announced that there were traitors among the people in the room. He called names of his friends, one by one, and they would leave the room never to be seen again. Yes. I think it is not fair to compare such an evil guy to the current president… Still, you can not look into the darkness without the darkness looking into you. Certain people played with this guy, supported him, helped him to become powerful because he was useful. Some of these people happen to have worked for the US, some happen to have important positions in the current party against him. That’s all.
One thing that frightens me even more about Saddam loving Stalin so much… Stalin send many people in his army into the fight without even a gun. Saddam’s people are better equipped, but possibly as scared as the soldiers in the Stalin army, who feared the bullets of their officers more than the German ones. (See, now I am generalizing and assuming… I do not like that.)
2. Again, Rich had a good point that the UN has been twisted and you have the good point that the idea of the United Nations is different from its reality. I agree. But if the idea is so great, why don’t we try to support it? I am sure you know the United States were not very happy about even paying contributions to the United Nations. (This was really a big issue) I find it interesting that the contribution of the US to the United Nations were an “outrageous” 30 Billion Dollars, between 1945 and 1999 in total… hmm… I have heard of other numbers being used for other purposes today. But here I go again, comparing apples and oranges.
3) Chris, what is your point in talking like this about the French. I really hope you will have the chance to meet some very nice and friendly French people some day. I would really recommend you travel to France. It is really worth a try.
As for the military successes, be careful there too. What the US are currently employing is a tactic preferred by Napoleon. He was French, wasn’t he? Oh, wait, he was from Corsica… ; )
4) I can not keep up with lines that were so wonderfully crafted by some people much smarter than me. “the only real source of income for rebuilding the nation of Iraq.” Really, the only source? and rebuilding the nation of Iraq? What? Wait, it almost looks as if your answer says more “blood for oil” than the slogan itself. Iraq is much more than oil… if one only allowed it to be. (Which will hopefully happen.) And which one of the Nations do you think will be *RE*-built? There were many, however I have the feeling that the new one is hardly a re-bilt… ; )
5) Okay, you did not “watch as the collective Arab cheer was heard around the world when those buildings fell down.” How do you make your answers sound as if they were fabricated by a really well oiled information department of a totalitarian state? : )
See, such general statements are exactly what inflames relationships between people, not even groups of people. What was this collective Arab cheer? Why was it heard around the world?
Why do you think is September 11th relevant in this current campaign against Iraq? You probably know the answers much better than I do.
6) So which one is better, the West Wing, or the Sopranos? Or should I start watching Six Feet Under?
7) Sounds like you met the guy. You should inform those who look for them where to find him. The way you describe him, it sounds almost as if it were possible to find him with some sort of “Muslim Fundamentalist Compass.”
Yeah. I know too little to say anything about any conspiracies.
You know what scares me most? I am sure he is pretty quick with answers as well. It somehow scares me when people are really quick with answers. Yes, on one hand this means that they are driven by principles, but it also means that they might not be able to actually observe and see emerging ideas.
It is the more effective method of living, no matter what part of the world you might currently have your head in. Principle centered thinking is effective, gets the job done. It is thinking as a tool. I hope I will never catch myself working this way… which might mean that it will take me longer to get somewhere, but maybe this is okay… I would certainly be a really bad villain.
9) See, it is tempting to assume that Iraq is like Texas. I am afraid that the people who live there are not as clear in what is good and evil as you are. I have the feeling that there are groups and streams and clans that have been around that region for 4000 years… (okay, not the same clans all the time, I just mean that there are some really serious old issues there.)
Also, these people were under the regime, as bad as it might have been, for thirty years, right? Do you think they might have developed some survival strategies? I do not mean some strategies as to how to survive on $2 a month. I mean psychologically. I could imagine that the Saddam Regime is rooted deeper than we might be tempted to assume.
I lived in Poland, and it is not comparable to Iraq, of course, but I remember exactly how well we knew how each and every person on my block stood in relationship to the Party. We knew of the informants, the secret Police guys and so on. If you have a society that is grown around the very well intertwined family structures, the issues might be even more complicated. Let’s say you, Chris DiClerico, live in Iraq and you are totally against the regime, but your sister, happens to be really successful with the help of the regime. (Easy, right?) She will not give you away, because you are her brother. You will not tell her about your activities, because she is your sister. She is a really good one with the regime and she makes sure I, your friend, gets hmm… eliminated. It is all legal, I just disappear, no big deal, happens all the time. Everybody knows that your sister did what she did, but there is obviously no change in situation, because it all hangs together. It is all a small community. Now the “liberators” arrive. They get rid of the Regime. There are two possibilities. Your sister was important enough to be “punished for her gruesome actions” in which case she will just go to the new jail for a while. Or, what would be worse, she is not important enough for her case to be “handled” by the “liberators.” What happens? My family will go after her as soon as they get the green light. She knows that. Long before the liberators come. She can either flee, no wait she can not. Or she can fight. How will you react. Will you run out into the streets and greet the liberating army? Either way. Not an easy one.
And the thing is that neither one of you knows anything else but the life under the regime. I mean you are alive and you are getting by. Things are working out fine. You have heard horrible things about America… and now… they come to liberate you? How quickly will the population, especially those under 35 or so, be able to shift gears. Wait, one more… in your lifetime, you went through three wars. And i don’t mean the stuff on television. I mean bombs being thrown at you kind of stuff.
I know, my thinking is not very effective, just my personal experiences projected… pretty worthless stuff when held against what you said… though it even does not sound as if you said it…
10) I agree with your point ten. … just type in >> chemical weapons iraq rumsfeld 1984
into google and happy reading. (There are many articles, thus plenty of angles.)
I support the young men and women that are entangled in the conflict right now. I wish they did not have to be there. That’s all.
Nothing you or I write here will change anything. I do not think that we should fight about the issues, though I think that a good discussion will let us have access to material otherwise just buried and forgotten. Okay?
#3 word?! wasn’t, like, um that napolean guy french ‘cos he kicked a lot of people’s asses, yo.
(…as for the “earning” the american superpower title thing…okay so well systematic genocide can be considered, errrmmmm “earning” i guess.)
but if any of ya’ll need more ammunition to use against the french here ya’ go.
Witold you’re killing me. Okay here we go. I don’t know which post I’m going to respond to so I’ll try to make a hybrid of my answers.
Before I begin, I’d like to say that I am a superpower ;-). In terms of breadth of skills and depth of abilities, I might qualify at the bottom level of superpower! You know what I was trying to say, but I’ve played a role in this so if anybody has the right to say it, I’m certainly included in that group.
Agreeing with who’s in charge has nothing to do with it. My profession doesn’t allow me to make that distinction. I didn’t agree with most of my former President’s policy choices. But we were still a superpower. And for the record, I do put myself in other people’s shoes. Just makes me happy to be wearing mine.
1. Noriega definitely served a purpose. The Panama Canal is one valuable piece of real estate. Through our control of Noriega, we controlled it. But humans are humans and tend to abuse their power. He wasn’t a nut when he started off. Power went to his head an corrupted him. Regarding Saddam- we supported him because at the time, Iran was deemed to be a greater threat. Whether you agree or not with that assessment, it was made and policy decisions followed it. 20/20 hindsight’s an easy thing to have.
2. I’m not interested in guiding the world. I’m more of an isolationist at heart. I think we should leave others alone for the most part. The problem is the World won’t let us. When they have problems they can’t handle, we incariably get the call. This is similar to a conversation I always have with my brother. He thinks in “should” while I think in “is.” Of course, things “should” be a certain way, but we have to deal with how they “are.” I’ve been part of quite a few stupid ass UN operations. The idea may be nice but until you figure out a way to execute it, it’s simply not doable.
3. Military Tactics are my raison d’etre but I can’t for the life of me figure out which Napoleonic tactic you’re talking about. Please explain. He was a crafty Corsican wasn’t he?
4. I looked at Wolfowitz’s document and I have to agree. We shouldn’t have a rival if we can avoid it. I’m also behind promoting American interests. Personally, the rest of the world can really kiss my ass.
5. My friend, do you consider yourself an American? Do you hold an American passport? When Americans are killed after their nationalities are identified, when my friends in uniform are shot at while overseas, while American tourists emerging from embassies are being specifically targeted, I am saying they are trying to kill us. You can make yourself feel safer by pretending that there’s a group that they truly want to kill. You may even be right. But the thing about terrorist… they don’t take the time to make the distinction or the positive ID.
6. I think we’re both in mutual agreement that TV actors should stay out of policy.
7.I understand where you’re going with this but it’s historically inaccurate. Democracy isn’t a luxury- it never was. Greece was not a rich land. The land was extremely poor farming land. In fact, the Greeks believed that their hard lives are exactly what made them excellent soldiers. They also believe that freedom was not granted by the pen but acquired through steel. The city-states constantly fought each other. And if I am at all facile with my answers, it is because they come from years of serious study and experience.
8. Enough with conspiracies.
9. I could not follow the point you were making.
10. Same for 10.
Look, I don’t believe that things like the UN will ever work because it’s absurd to think that Cameroon or Angola are our equals. No two people are equal. No 2 nations are equal. Just as my opinion on design is less than stupid, your opinion on military tactics is not particularly valid. We may or may not be morally equal, but in terms of our ability to do things, we are not.
I’ll say again for the record that I don’t care about the rest of the world. I care about ensuring and maintaining American dominance and safety. I’m not at all interested in giving the rest of the world a chance. If they do well, great. But I’m not the least bit inclined to help them. You want to come to this Country and become a citizen, I’ll give my life to defend you. But if your loyalty lies elsewhere, then so does mine.
And Emily? Napoleon was Corsican, not French. And what sytematic genocide are you talking about? The Native Americans? If that’s the case then it doesn’t track. What we did to the NA’s was shameful but it did not make us a superpower. Our success in WWII did and most assuredly did not commit genocide then. The two points simply aren’t equitable. I’m going to bed now. This narrow column format is giving me a headahce.
Witold- you should read “On the Origins of War and the Preservation of Peace” by Donald Kagan as well as “The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of the New World Order” by Huntington. They both would provide you with historical and theoretical frameworks.
Hey Rich, how am I killing you? I am just giving you a platform to voice your opinion in a semi dialogue, not in a monologue. I think some of the points made are not too bad. I am glad that we are slowly keeping TV out of the conversation.
Okay, I give you that you are a superpower. : ) Or at least you act like one. The one thing that might distinguish you from a superpower however, is the knowledge of your own mortality. (I hope you know that we are all very, very likely to die some day.) There are several ways to face this knowledge. You can either pick a path that will allow you to inspire those around you, give more of what you have, but give, or, you can choose to just have a great time by showing everybody the finger and …having a good time. I know that there are a million ways between these two, and I know that at least one includes you in the center of a room and entertainers from all over the world being there to serve you, but regardless what you decide to do, you and I are really very likely to have a final day in our names some times in the future. It is possible that this rule of mortality does not apply to more complex systems, but I somehow have my doubts. Also, the longest standing superpowers seem to be those that are somehow connected to the real estate in minds, not the one on the ground.
1) Yes, I agree that the decisions might have really looked like the best thing to do at that particular time. One can not really blame anybody for not trying to do the right thing. All kinds of choices, bad and good are made by men who are trying to do the right thing.
2) You suddenly sound like a victim. The world won’t leave us alone? What if we just shut the borders and started trading within the 50 states only? I am sure there is some substance that can replace Gum Arabicum in Coke. ; )
I think the history of man is paved by “undoable” ideas. I wonder how many of those we are using by just posting to this blog here. : )
3) Well, ahem, it surprises me that you do not see the parallels. Napoleon was famous for sending his troops to a certain position as quickly as possible in order to just get a strong presence in a particular point in battle and then, once they arrived there, to use them as a military force. You know, like this whole rush to Baghdad and dealing with the rest later is basically a Napoleonian move. The other tactic was to “soften” an enemy position first and then apply tactic one. Or to divide an enemy force into pieces first and then dealing with the smaller parts one by one.
The only weak point of such quick and surprising moves was bringing supplies to the troops. This was exactly what turned Napoleon’s march on Moscow into a debacle. His troops outran the trains with supplies. The Russians used the tactic of burned soil and poisoned water, using their land mass to their advantage. You might say that times have changed and that there are much better ways to support the troops now. I mean Napoleon did not have helicopters and all that stuff, but his vehicles needed grass to run, not oil… You might have also noticed that the first POW’s were not soldiers who came from the fighting divisions, but a chef and some other supply guys. You will probably find this article by John M. Broder interesting.
4.) Do you think your comment might be a bit of what people outside the US think that Americans are like? Basically arrogant ahem… I wonder what makes you think that America can be what it is without the outside world? : )
Or do you mean that the outside world is okay to stay there, as long as they are just part of the supply chain? Components assembled in Malasia, made in USA? ; )
I have a very beautifully designed version of the rewritten Wolfowitz document. I will bring by a copy next time we meet. It looks really nice and reads like a good story, when read in the right place, of course.
5.) I was actually considering becoming an American citizen. I guess I consider myself a New Yorker more than anything else. I was born in Poland, my family and I fled the country in 1981 and I now have a German passport. I think I am more pro American than you might be able to see.
I might not be able to cast my vote in elections here, but I love this country for what it stands for.
I do not think that the world should kiss the ass of America. This “technique” has seduced many empires in the past. I feel like an ambassador of the good that sits within each one of us. You should hear the conversations I have with my friends overseas. I sometimes feel like I am trying to sell them something. My “job” at showing the good side of things is a little tougher now and then, but I think the opinion I get back from people is more of a positive one. In this way, I feel as patriotic as you, I guess. : )
6.) Hehe… I like this one. It sounds different now than it would have sounded in 1984, doesn’t it? : )
7.) Okay, years of study and experience. I give you that. Greece might have been “poor” but it had slaves. The people who ran democracy were not the same people who had to work in the field, I think. This is what I meant by “politicos” and “idiotos”… it was the “politicos”, the public people who made democracy and it was the common people the “idiotos” who lived in it. Just like now, except that the “idiotos” vote did not count…
I have the feeling that your knowledge of history is very military focused, which is okay, after all, the sword is mightier than the pen, isn’t it? : )
8.) yeah…
9.) I mean that Iraq is not as homogenous of a place as one might hope for. Ideally there would be a division of bad guys on top and the rest of the people oppressed and ready to support their liberators on the bottom. You take off the top and the rest heals itself. You leave the place and all you get from then on are love-letters and pictures of happy babies.
It is a different story if a) a regime was allowed to flourish for a substantial time and managed to place itself very deep in people’s lives. b) there have been some serious issues between groups in the country even before the regime took on their position.
I have the feeling that both risks exist in Iraq. We have a population that is very afraid that Americans will not go all the way and that their neighbor will give them away if they do anything pro American now… and there are several groupings of within the country which are very likely to fight each other once the oppression of a strong regime is removed.
10.) I do not know what 10 was about either. I guess I am against covering war as if it were a sports event. Supporting the troops is a bit different than wearing a Yankee hat to a Yankee game. I do not like this sports-commentator style as applied in Daryl G. Press’ article How to Take Baghdad. It might be cool to try to figure out what the chances are to hit a home run, based on part performance of the team, but I think if one starts to calculate with lives like it is happening in some cases is just disrespectful to live itself, forget America for a second…
“1000 fatalities is a relatively low price to conquer a country of 24 Million…” makes me sick to the stomach. It does not make you sick?
There is just so much wrong with this statement, I do not know where to start.
Your point about the UN… please think again if Angola and Cameroon are considered equal to the United States even according to the current state of things. : )
I will have to give you a full amount of points on your knowledge about the military and the inside of it and all. I wish you were able to somehow help me understand your thinking a little better. All I can hear from what you say now is “Sword is mightier than pen,” kind of talk. It does not work for me.
I am not trying to fight you, Rich, I just want you to help me find the truth. Your mission is not yet accomplished. : )
To your next point. Yes, I actually want to become a citizen here and I am glad that you want to protect me. I just wish that the voices of those who look for a peaceful resolution of issues were heard too, so you can protect me by staying home and posting to this blog, not by going out there and fighting the bad guys for me, so I can sit here and hope you do not get hurt.
I am pro “invite friends to build a better future and let them somehow know that you carry a big stick.” I am not for “swing and hit with the big stick until nothing moves and then see who is left to be friends, or not.”
The second scenario is certainly a great one for stick manufacturers and those who later build locks… but this is just my naive version of the world. ; )
I added both of the books you recommended to my wishlist. let’s see what happens.
I might not be able to reply today. I am sure there will be enough voices against me to keep it all exciting though. : )
Cheers
You were killing me because here I had a lovely young lady in bed and I was writing to you. I’d get settled and then think, “I have to check if Witold wrote back.” Then when you did, I had to as well. What the fuck is going on?!!!
I have a better grasp of my mortality than most. It has been my constant companion as long as I have been an adult. Recently, I had a bout with kidney failure resulting in uncontrolled hypertension and lungs that were filling with fluid. I came pretty close to checking out. What I am most proud of is how I acquitted myself during this ordeal. Because I realize I’m going to die at some point, I’m infinitely more careful about how I live. I’m careful about who I have time for and who I allow in my life. I’m also very aware of the example I set. If I’m to be honored in that way, let me be an inspiration to my Countrymen. The rest can wish they were Americans.
I believe the UN to be fundatmentally unworkable because I view the world as Hobbesian. War, not peace, is the basic state of things. According to Bertrand Russell, in all the world’s recorded history, there has only ben 62 years of peace. Perhaps there may be a paradigm shift in the future that may make an international organization possible. But it’s not now. And I would rather die than give any European a say in how I live my life.
I recently spent the weekend in DC where I also went into Virginia. Witold, I think that you are confusing New York for America. NYC has more in common with Paris than is has with most of America. NYers tend to see it as the center of the US. It is not. The bulk of the young men who defend our Nation do not come from NYC. As a rule, NYC doesn’t breed selfless people prone to sacrifce. The best of our Country is not in NY. It’s in the small towns.
Regarding Napoleon… you are making the classic mistake between strategy and tactics. In terms as broad as you put it, every successful military commander has used them in the past. It’s part of the repetoire. Strategy has not changed in thousands of years back to Sun Tzu. Tactics change everytime our weapons do because our capabilities change. I see no more in common with Napoleon than I do with Alexander, General Lee, or Patton. It’s just the way business is done given the circumstances.
And you are mistaken about Greece. They had slaves, not beause they had money, but because they had won wars. Slaves were a big part of winning wars. Win and you get slaves. Lose and you become one. Landowners did work the land. That’s why the nature of warfare developed as it did in Greece. Wars had to be quick and decisive because the men had to get back to work the fields. The campaigning season was based on the harvest season. And for the record, I study history is general particularly as it is applied to governments. If this has a lot to do with war, it’s because War has been the deciding factor in every major decision in how we llive our lives from the beginning of time.
I’m glad that you want to become an American. We can always use people like you. When it happens, we’ll have a party.
A letter written to Congressional leadership back in 1998:
http://newamericancentury.org/iraqletter1998.htm
This issue has been brewing long before President Bush even decided to run for office.
Well, before I even reply, how does this sound?
Oh, look, somebody is mocking our discussion… : )
Hmm, I am using special powers to make you reply to my silly posts. I am glad this is working. I just wish you would reply to some of my questions to which I am really seeking answers… like the one on chemical weapons… and not just point out that you are much smarter than me. You are, we know that, I agree. Let’s move on. Next…
Rich, I did not say that you do not have a grasp of your mortality. I am sorry that you were not doing well recently and I am glad that you seem to be doing much better now. I was just trying to point out that there is no such thing as the immortal anything. (ouch!) Oh wait, there is. (I just got a major slap on the back of my head. Was this you?) : )
Okay, you setting an example and the rest of the world “wishing to be American.” Will I become a little more like you when I get my American passport? Will I also start setting an example in exactly the ways you do? And will more people wish to be as American as I will be? This by itself sounds like a dangerous place to go for. Hmm… Are we talking about the same thing?
Rich!, “rather die than give any European a say in how to live your life?” Not only are you the example of all that is good, you are the source of all good ideas as well? And one of the ideas seems to be that war is the way of things. You must have something to do with the army, it really reminds me of this famous quote “there are three arts - painting, music and ornamental pastry making; of the last, architecture is a sub-division.” (the quote is obviously by a pastry cook.) Yes, there is a constant state of war all over the world. (Even Chimps actually have wars.) This does not mean that there is also a constant state of art and a constant state of giving birth and raising children. (You know, the good way to replenish the planet with new soldiers?)
I am happy you went to Virginia and to DC. I love some places there. I have also been to some incredible places in the West and the South and many incredibly beautiful places in this country in general. I know that New York is very much New York. I am not sure if I would compare it with Paris. Have you ever tried driving in Paris? Paris might be the centre of France, but New York City is the center of the universe. People from other places can kiss my … I think New York, actually Brooklyn, should send out its finest and bravest to liberate some of those who do not understand what it means to have 24hour subway service. : ) I think we should build a stadium on the West-side and use it for american-gladiator fights…
Why are the small towns the best of our country?
As for the Napoleon information, I only gave you what I found in the articles I linked to, as you claimed to not know about his ways (just to point out in the end that I made a mistake, how cunning of you, was it tactics or is it a strategy?) The authors claimed that some of the techniques used by Napoleon were somehow innovative enough to surprise his opponents. I guess the opponents just did not have the same knowledge of “the way business is done?” They were just Europeans? They did not read the right books?
I really tried to somehow prove your point about the Greeks not having money and being farmers and warriors to myself, I somehow kept running into articles that told me that they had other professions as well (their slaves too). And I somehow got the feeling that they might have spent some time doing other interesting things, beyond fighting, at least some of them. I might very well be mistaken about Greece, but you and I will really need to take a stroll through the Louvre next time you and I visit Paris. : ) (And this should happen before somebody finds out that France actually has WMD.)
You can USE people like me? To do what? You currently have me, without the annoying possibility that I could cast a single vote in an election. I am a very legal resident for now. I will become American citizen some day. Then we will indeed have a party and both go to vote. (No worries, the nature of my opinion will make me poke the card in the “wrong” place anyway.)
: )
(Hmm, I wonder if I poked you in the right place…)
America works because different kinds of people come over here and contribute. That’s one of the gifts of Western Civilization. Anybody can write a history or attempt to make a contribution. Imagine trying to do that in Ancient Persia. Impossible.
And I don’t think for a second that I’m smarter than you. I do believe that I know more about this topic though.
I’ll gladly answer your questions about chem weapons if I’m able. If I’m not, I’ll try to find you an answer. Just let me know the question again please?
Come on Witold. I don’t think that everybody should be like me. You seem to have a prejudicial opinion of those who hold more conservative viewpoints. The great thing about this country is that folks have the opportunity to do what they want. The USA has higher immigration rates than any country in the world. Please. Give me some credit here. We’re two intelligent adults having a conversation. People wish to be American because it’s the best chance for a better life. Not a guarantee but a chance which is more than most countries offer.
There’s a big distinction between being influenced by Europeans and letting them have a say in my life. Of course, I’m influenced by Europeans. I’m a big proponent of Western Culture. But I don’t think in matters of State, that any European nation should have any ability to regulate my life. That’s why we’re different countries.
Your argument about me thinking war is important because I want to think myself important by my association with it is a cop out. Grant me for a second that I’m not an imbecile. Attack my argument, not me. Look at world history. It is written in battles. Everything good in life is there because somebody protected it. Think of all the good things that were destroyed because they could not be protected. I’m not asking for anybody to pat me on the back. I don’t give a shit about that. I personally wish War wasn’t so important. I hate it far more than you. I’ve lost more friends because of it. How many close friends do yo uhave in the Gulf right now. It’s not an intellectual exercise for me. Those are people I care about. But it’s necessary. The other option is to be conquered and that’s not an option. Perhaps we won’t be conquered in my lifetime, but my life is not where historians can point to 200 years from now and say here began the decline of America. As a rule, leave something better than when you found it.
Survival comes first and everything else is a luxury. Spend anytime in nature in a situation where you have to hunt for your food, find water and shelter. You soon start to learn what is truly important. I’m not saying art isn’t important. But it doesn’t come before survival. No man, no art.
Small towns are the best of our Country. They are where the best Americans, those that actually built and make this country run are from. They are the salt of the Earth. They say what they mean and mean what they say. When this country asks for its young men to make a sacrifice, most of them come from small towns.
There is a difference between tactical surprise and strategic surprise. In this day and age, strategic surprise is pretty much impossible. THe media would rpevent any of that. Any proficient military commander will know his material. St. Cyr and Sandhurst essentially taught the same thing. Those that Napoleon defeated were just not as good, as a rule, at executing as he was. Its like sports. Everybody who plays the sport knows the same thing Michael Jordan knows, but why is he better? It’s not because he knows something special. It’s because he does it better. Everybody read the right books. Some men just understood them better. It’s always been that way. Napoleon had some innovative tactics, but those tactics don’t really mean anything nowadays because tactics are too influence by technology. This topic is a book unto itself.
Ancient Greece is too complicated for me to get into with you it seems. What time period are you referring. I’m looking at 1000BC to about 380 BC. It was during that time that the Hellenic culture evolved. Ethnically, they came from the North to occupy the land known as the Pelopenesse. They had to pascify the current residents to do so. Ancient Greece was actually a collection of city-states each with customs and laws of its own. I suspect from your word choices that you are primarily refering to Athens. I am more referring to Sparta and Thebes. Most of the Greek art that yo usee in museums came from the end of the time spectrum I have mentioned. Earlier in their development, they simply didn’t have the time. Athens was very warlike. They conquered City States so they could have slaves so they could focus on art and building. But that came because fo their ability to fight. There is also a distinction between the Hellenic Age and the Hellenistic Age. Much Greek art came out of th eHellenistic Age under the auspices of Alexander. In fact, the downfall of Greece was due to a large part to their increasing decadence. Even before the Pelopenessian War, Athenian were forgetting the traditions of the past that brought them success. During the time of Alexander, it was said that the Macedonians were accepting Greek ways, the Greeks themselves were devolving in barbarism. If you look at Greek history as a whole, it clear that the majority of the art came from times of relative peace. Had the Persian conquered the Greeks in 480BC, not only would we not have democracy, but the freedom of expression that it brings would have been lost too. All art would have become official art, praising Xerxes. They did do some importnat things besides fighting but pretty much every citizen crontributed to the defense of the city-state at one part of his life. Socrates himself was a soldier before he became a philosopher. He liked to say that he didn’t like to teach any man who hadn’t been a soldier or an athlete because only they understood the difference btween the good and the pleasant.
Lastly I would like to say that I’ll gladly engage you on any issue, but this isn’t a contest about who’s more clever. It’s about the exchange of ideas. I won’t insult you with snide, condescending remarks and I request that you do the same. I am willing to even have this discussion over private email if that makes you more comfortable.
For myself, I am enjoying this discussion. I don’t like to talk too much with those that agree with me because I already know how they think.
Okay, first of all, sorry for writing like I am swinging a little stick at you all the time and throwing stones and such. I know the last few responses actually made me look pretty bad and I really can just eyeball some of the issues here. I guess the main reason why I turned so squeaky and just pretty much annoying might lay in the fact that I know that I was the originator of this entry here, we are somehow talking on Chris’ blog, but I can still just go in an edit and just pull the plug on this particular entry (and I probably just will, because of the keywords and google and all.) This makes me feel like I am on my home turf, and so this whole discussion is like…
Oh boy.
You know, and I mentioned it before, I think, that I sound more like you in some respects, when I talk to people who come with some heavy Anti-Americanism at me. I guess my very job is to look sideways and to somehow point out things and emphasize them.
“All art is propaganda. (Not all propaganda is art.)” (This one is by George Orwell.)
Look at me man, I am in the States, looking at Broadway… all by my choice. So my actions speak louder than my words here, except that words are all we see here and so it looks like I am just throwing stones.
Yes, America works because it is made of (on a daily basis) of ideas that came from around the world. It works even better because some of the ideas that people bring here are exactly the ideas that they were not able to even speak of in their original countries. So there is a lot of passion that is the undercurrent here… in many places.
Do you think this works because this is such a young country? You mention Ancient Persia as the example of the opposite. Do you think that there was not such an undercurrent in this place ever? Do you think the place can be made into a fertile ground of such undercurrents of innovation again?
What do you think is the real outcome of the big story? Not even this conflict. Just in General.
My question about chemical weapons was the following… We saw that the soldiers would run for cover whenever there would be a rocket explosion near their camp in Kuwait. They would then stay in their bunker and a team would assess the situation. The team would check if things are clear, they were. The soldiers would then come out and just keep going.
How does this whole procedure work in a more real situation of war. I somehow suggested that chemical weapons probably are not delivered as the one and only thing when they are. I think one of their danger is that they can be delivered very quietly. So how would this whole procedure work if there were indeed chemical weapons and if they were used in a more dirty way. If they were just thrown in the mix of things, in a situation when there is not the time to go back and wait things out.
The second part of the question was, what will happen if somebody on the other side just really feels with the back against the wall. (And we are not offering any escape routes here, as far as I hear, at least not officially…) and if this “person” decides that, since they are going to die anyway, they might just as well make it a big one and just take all of Baghdad with them. What if the “person” decides to just take out the civilians in Baghdad just to make sure that the whole operation turns into a historic event.
The third part of the question would then be… how quickly would such a strike “work”… and how much could any outside group do?, what will happen?, how long does it take do decontaminate?
No, wait, I do not think that you want to think yourself important by putting yourself into association with war. You said that. I am just saying that it might be much more obvious for you that war is important because you see it more and you know more about it.
You have spent more time in your life thinking about war than I hopefully will ever have to. And so my first thoughts might be in one direction, while yours are in a different direction.
I tried to find this one cartoon from the New Yorker in which a rabbit waits on a lion in a restaurant. And the rabbit says:”I can really recommend the salad.”
So I walk through the world I try to somehow tell myself that it is all fun and games and heading towards a better place. You have to see and hear of things I really do not want to see or hear.
I would not want to be in your skin, especially now that you have your friends you know well put in harm’s way.
See, you writing “everything good in life is there because somebody protected it.” is absolutely true, I guess I would just add that “many good things in life are there because somebody had the courage to make them.”
So even though much of what we say might sound like we are fighting each other (I mean you and I.) we could be as well actually speaking of the same thing, just from a different point of view.
And yes, I can be only saying these things because I have the luxury of being in a protected place and have the time to say it all.
I have lived in places where things were much worse than where I am now. Oddly enough, I was told then that where I am is the best place on earth as well. Humans are so good at adapting to situations, especially when in groups. Some things that might seem incredibly crazy to us might be the most natural and the right thing to others. And I mean it on a very simple, personal, private level.
Again, let me reinforce what I said in the beginning of this post. I said most of the inflammatory remarks to emphasize certain issues. Even if it looked like personal attacks, it really was not. I started the entire post with the following statement: “I could have posted the below as a comment, but then I would lose control of it and would not be able to rewrite it and claim that I have never said this or that. I like having this freedom. It makes me feel powerful. (Until Chris takes away my right to post…)”
The idea of this entire post was that it happens on “my turf”, yet in an environment where the opinion will be strong. I could have posted the same 10 points on my blog and I would probably just get a tap on my shoulder.
So I will need to take this post back into draft soon, mainly because much of what I said here was said to poke at things and does not really express my personal opinion.
Now that I see myself writing it, it looks like I am not honest or something, or trying to wiggle my way out. ; )
I grew up in a place that has been the underdog for centuries. I mean really bad stuff, divided, raped, still even now not in its original borders.
I mentioned it before, many times, one of my favorite childrens’-television series was about freedom-fighters using the dirtiest of tactics to just survive.
It was real fun watching these guys beat the overwhelming and much better equipped Germans in every single episode. I mean the show (there were actually two shows, “The four tank riders and the dog.” and the more grown up one “Capitan Kloss”) just really taught us step by step what to do when occupied. It is especially interesting because even though I grew up really hating, I mean hating Germans as a little boy, I actually had a German name and now have a German passport. (I was lucky that my father would always try really hard to give me some sort of perspective.)
But I mean my hate against anything German was so strong that I could not smell this one kid in my first grade “Norbert Langer” (look, I even remember his name!) because the other kids said that he was German! And I was a “German” kid myself!
And just to complete the story, we also hated the Russians and secretly liked the Americans.
So why am I going on and on about a personal story again?
I read this article just yesterday, that some Iraqi milicia troops gave guns to children and that then these children attacked an American unit. I mean this is really horrible, but I remember that I could not wait to finally learn how to shoot a gun, which was part of regular curriculum in my school for all, boys and girls in 6th grade!
I was part of a scout unit named after the “heroes of the parachuter tower”. These heroes were kids who brought a machine gun onto a parachuter tower near my home town, so they can shoot at the Germans. The main hero of this group however was a little girl, who walked up to a general with a gun hidden in a bouquet of flowers during a parade and shot him to kill him. I knew how to mix a Molotov cocktail when I was 6. (I do not know how to mix one anymore…)
So what do I mean by all that? I am really afraid of looking at any kind of military conflict as if it were a sport. What happens on a very close to the ground level in the minds of people who are engaged in a war situation, especially when happening in their own country (no matter how messed up we think it might be,) is much more complex than can ba taken out by any smart weapon.
I really feel for each person trapped in this battle that is going on in Iraq right now. I think people who speak of “our troops” and “our men and women” really see a slanted picture.
Each one of these people could be us. Each one of them has a mother, they might have known their father, some of the fathers might have been killed in previous wars. Each one of these people fears for their life. This is really serious stuff. What hurts me most is when people speak of calculated casualties, or that “we will need to sacrifice a couple of thousand lives.”
I do not think any lives should be sacrificed. If anybody speaks of human lives as if they were just numbers, they probably should just imagine what it would be like to be one of the people killed…
So I guess this is what I was trying to say all along. You just happened to be the one who replied… (And I knew you would and I am glad you did…)
One more thing… when they will show the loved ones of the young soldiers who will be killed in combat, most of them will probably not be the affluent type of families. There is this “up to” $20,000 enlistment bonus for the army and it will probably sound more attractive to kids who do not already drive their daddy’s porsche, or those who do not already know that they will not only go to harvard, but live in the “executive dorms”.
And you are right, there are some really incredible people out there fighting…
I really, really hope that as few of these people will be injured as only possible.
And the campaign now has to go through, has to be completed.
I do not think that demonstrations are the right thing right now. It is too late for them.
We should now hope that as few people will be injured as possible…
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First of all, Witold, this post is GOING NOWHERE. This is the best conversation ever had on this blog, or maybe any blog, and I want it to stay. I have bowed out for a few days because I have been so busy, but I have more to add. I just can’t do it right now. I am reading this fantastic book, that is directly about most of this discussion. I don’t want to say too much before I get the chance to think about it, but I will say this: The book is called “What’s So Great About America.” It is written by an Indian immigrant, Dinesh D’Souza. It is a MUST READ.I’ll write later about some of his ideas to which I fully subscribe.
Anyway, nobody is pissed off here, as far as I know, which is a record considering just the sheer word count on this page. This lively debate is what this country is about.
I just came back from the DaVinci show at the Met, which ends this weekend, I think. And he made really great drawings of mortar artillery that somehow looked like the ceiling of some place… The show is fantastic, btw.
Well, had I known that this post is here to stay then I would have behaved in more diplomatic ways, you know. Hmm, maybe I will need to rewrite some of my asshole comments… ; )
Witold (and I hope I can speak for most of the conservatives here), I totally respect you and your positions. Your ideas take the point of view of humanity, and what it means to actually live, and they are not clouded by claims of “right-wing conspiracies” (boy, if only our government could be so organized as to craft such conspiracies…then we’d be somewhere)
I only wish that TV and radio would have more panelists with your kind of thinking, because, quite frankly, a lot of the other “anti” war pundits are seriously lacking in intelligence.
Anyhow, you’re among friends. Just wanted to let you know that.
And Witold, actually, the military has always been more skewed towards the poorer set of our population…But then again, most of our population is actually of that poorer set than you’re used to seeing in areas such as the greater NYC area.
But I think if you looked further, you’d see that the US military can also be a ’slice of life’…I’d even argure that being in the military is a better way to “see America” than taking weekend trips to Boston and Chicago. If you truly want to see people from all walks of life, be in the military.
The proportion of rich people to poor peope in the USA is probably close to the proportion between officers and enlisted personnel. And you just might notice that a very large percentage of American casualties these days are flight related (especially during peacetime). Pilots are college educated, and often come from at least middle class backgrounds. All walks of life are affected. Not just poor people.
rich-
“but I’ve played a role in this so if anybody has the right to say it, I’m certainly included in that group.”
you’ve got me curious.
Witold- fantastic post. Raises some really great issues that I’ll try to take a decent stab at.
Words may be all we have here but they are important. Man is the only animal that can coordinate action through language. Perhaps that is why I’m such a pain in the ass about linguistic precision. I know you love this Country. Never doubted it for a second.
America may be a young Country but there are many that are younger. We are, no doubt, the youngest of the 1st World nations. But what is often overlooked is that we are the oldest democracy and have the longest lasting Constitution in the world. I believe that America’s vitality has a lot to do with immigration. Traditionally, immigrants have been willing to work harder and under worse conditions than others. Throughout history, those that got too rich got soft and eventually lost their stake.
“Soft lands breed soft men. It is not the quality of any one soil to breed good soldiers and fine fruit too.” - Cyrus the Great
Passion, ipso facto, isn’t the answer either. There is a lot of passion in Sierra Leone, in Pakistan, in Chechnya… What’s the difference? I do not know but I have to or choose to believe that it has something to do with our unique system of government. It’s not just a democracy and a Republic, it’s ours and it has specific characteristics that seem to have influenced the final product.
War is not important because I study it. I study was because it is important. I truly believe that soldiers exist to protect those who cannot protect themselves. It’s an important topic because lack of skill in this department translates to a lessening of respect on the international field. Right now. other nations may not like us, but they have to respect our might. Respect is far more stable then affection.
“It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting the ultimate practitioner.” - Cormac McCarthy
As an artist, in Ancient Persia, Egypt or even Modern Saudi Arabia, it may take courage to produce a work of art that is contrary to the party line. But without a mechanism to protect your work, you will soon be killed and your work destroyed. Your work will be for naught. It requires strength and steel, not words to protect, sustain and defend life.
Having said this, with limited resources and even more limited capabilities, I don’t care about the Iraqi people. They simply aren’t a concern of mine. All wars require lives and the goal is to make sure the allotment is mostly made up of their men and not ours. Perhaps this is morally wrong. I don’t care.
The only thing that pisses me off is this- and it’s a selfish reason. I don’t believe lives are equal. In the words of Buster Kilrain, “there’s many a man of no more worth than a dead dog.” I couldn’t agree with that more. Whether or not these young men overseas right now believe in the war, they are putting their lives on the line for each other. They aren’t doing it for civilians over here. You do what you do because you don’t want to be seen as any less in front of the men you respect so much. These are men willing to die to save their brothers. Those are the men that matter. The petty anarchist who cares for nothing but themselves and their venal pleasures… they make me sick. So it upsets me that those protesting most loudly against the war and violence are the least disciplined, most violent(emotionally, if not physically), and least likely to get killed. Every affluent culture produces vile parasites like these. I don’t care what you believe. Just truly believe it and make it more important your life.
I’ve always believed that manhood was measured by the level of commitment to something greater than yourself. If I am the central focus of my life, then I’ve got one sad life.
I absolutely love this “conversation” we’re having. I can think of few better ways to occupy my time.
Shit sorry. Forgot to answer your chem question. The first use of chem weapons was in WWII. As far as weapons go, it’s not that great but what it did do was produce some pretty gruesome deaths so even early on, it was a “terror” weapon except used against soldiers not civilians. Perhaps if you were fighting the Sudanese army, they would be effective but against a modern army? Us? Chem weapons have limited usefulness. In certain areas, they can be used as an area denial weapon but that requires near freezing temperatures and virtually no wind. VX, Sarin, etc. would quickly dissipate if released generally into the desert without causing much damage. They are most effective in closed in enviroments like cities. But either way, US troops have gear that will defeat chem weapons. If Saddam uses them as a last ditch weapon in Iraq. he’ll kill a less than 100 soldiers at best. No more than that before the rest get their gear on. Who he will kill a lot of are his own people. But chances are, he doesn’t care about them. That’s why we are moving so quickly. We want to move quickly, sow confusion, and break his OODA loop. If Saddam decides to use these weapons on his own people, there is very very little we can do about it. Our best hope is to move fast and take the initiative. In terms of chem weapons being in a bunker we blow up… most of it would be consumed by the heat of the explosion. The bits that were would be decontaminated relatively quickly. Trace elements would exist but as everybody knows the toxicity is in the dose.
I don’t know if I answered your question. I’m still a bit unclear about what you’re asking.
Hmm, see, one of the reasons why I am so worried is… I somehow knew this stuff and then I read this and it got me even more scared. I was wondering what these oil filled trenches might be about. What if they were just a way to check how the wind stands? A very primitive way, I know, but hey, pretty maintenance free one, no?
It appears that Iraq has figured that Sarin is not very effective over a longer time period, though it apparently mixes really well with water and is not all that “ineffective” when there happens to be no wind and depressions in the ground, like… trenches? (it apparently is heavier than air and just pours into these places) and so they started mixing it with other agents to make a more effective, more long lasting mix that can be easily delivered. Also… I have the feeling that when using chemical weapons one of the ideas is to not loudly announce that it is happening. The amounts needed to create long term effects are very small, something like a pin head of sarin can kill? Some of the agents are colorless and odorless and show symptoms only after a certain delay, hours or days?… : |
I guess you answered all my questions. You answered more than that. : |
Thank you.
I did not know what the names of the agents were, for example, and your answer helped me find more relevant information.
What exactly defines the term “chemical weapon?” It can not be stuff like Zyklon B, for example or HCN? Because those were very much used against civilians… in most barbaric ways during WWII, as we all know. : (
I really hope that US intelligence is wrong and than Iraq does not have any WMD.
I really hope that you are right and that this stuff is very easy to handle for the troops and that it goes away quickly and will not really harm many people.
All very troubling, I really hope you are right, Rich.
Witold, let me be clear. If Saddam uses his chem weapons, it will kill a lot of civilians, but not many soldiers. It may kill some but not a lot. If Saddam forces us to fight in a chem environment, it makes thinges easier for us because we shoot anybody who’s not in an American MOPP suit. No more playing civilian.
Chemical weapons are weapons who’s primarly belligerent agent is chemical and causes casualties through chemical reactions. They are all subject to the Chemical Weapons Convention. The US takes this very seriously. Interestingly enough, you have to get approval from the National Command Authority to use pepper spray because it is classified as a chem weapon. That doesn’t make much sense huh? You can shoot somebody but you can’t OC them,
He has them. We know he has them. Every world government knows he has them too. It’s just a matter of time.